CITIZENS INFORMATION COMMITTEE 
MINUTES OF MARCH 23, 1995 MEETING 
 
Attendees 
 
Deb Backhus, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs 
Mike Baker, Coalition Opposed to PCB Ash 
Susan Bremer, Indiana Department of Environmental Management 
Marti Crouch, Near Westside Neighborhood Association 
Diane Henshel, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs 
Sally Hegeman, League of Women Voters 
Dan Hopkins, U.S. EPA Remedial Project Manager 
Iris Kiesling, Bloomington City Council 
John Langley, Bloomington PCB Coordinator 
Michael List, Private Citizen, CIC Chair 
Dave Novak, U.S. EPA Community Relations Coordinator 
Brian Pence, People Against the Incinerator 
Resa Ramsey, Indiana Department of Environmental Management 
Alex Tzallas, U.S. EPA Assistant RPM 
 
Not Present 
 
Lee Caulfield, Bloomington Rotary 
Lynn Coyne, Bloomington Chamber of Commerce 
John Foster, Bloomington Environmental Commission 
George Hegeman, Monroe County Board of Health 
Dawn Hewitt, The Audubon Society 
Rachel Loop, Indiana Public Interest Research Group 
Flynn Picardal, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs 
Amy Roche, Student Environmental Action Coalition 
Jordan Shifriss, Harmony School 
Rob Stone, Physicians for Social Responsibility 
 
Observers 
 
Kyle Dreyfuss 
David Mockert, Citizen 
Roger DiVencenzo, Westinghouse  
Jim Patrick, Westinghouse 
Dave Porter, Citizen 
Dick Powell, EARTH TECH, EPA Contractor  
Vincent Valentin, Citizen 
Charlotte Zietlow, Citizen 
 
Speakers 
 
Mike Baker, COPA 
Pauline Ewald, ECO 
Joe Hailer, WPI 
Melissa Valentin, MVA Consulting, Inc. 
Michael Johnson, PRC 
Robert Foster, PRC 
 
Approval of Minutes 
 
The minutes were approved without amendment. 
 
Remedial Activities 
 
Hopkins introduced Alex Tzallas and said that Alex will be working as 
Hopkins assistant on the Bloomington sites for the next year. 
 
EPA held a public meeting on January 23rd to let the public know about a 
proposal EPA had received from Westinghouse and ABB to transport the ABB 
soils to a USPCI TSCA permitted landfill in Utah.  EPA approved this 
proposal on February 28th, 1995.  EPA has a copy of the comments and the 
responses to the comments.  These copies are available in the 
repositories and the Public Information Center.  Hopkins said that the 
transportation of the ABB materials should begin in late April or early 
May and should be completed in about 3 months.  Hopkins said that EPA 
received a request from Westinghouse to remove the Fell material to the 
USPCI facility in Utah.  Hopkins said that EPA is reviewing that request 
and will keep the citizens informed of that process.  
 
Marti Crouch asked if there would be public comment on that site.   
 
Hopkins said yes. 
 
Update on site evaluation and alternative remediation process selection 
 
Westinghouse submitted a quality assurance plan (QAP) to conduct some 
monitoring and residential well sampling.  Westinghouse's (QAP) was 
returned with comments for inclusion.  Westinghouse incorporated those 
comments and is being re-reviewed by EPA's quality assurance division.  
EARTH TECH, EPA's contractor, is also developing a QAP for monitoring 
well, residential well, and spring sampling.  EPA should have that plan 
by next week.  Westinghouse will be looking for PCBs primarily while the 
EPA will be looking at a host of other contaminants, VOCs, semi 
volatiles, dioxins, furans, metals, PCBs, and pesticides.  EARTH TECH is 
also preparing a sampling plan to examine the fill material at Lemon 
Lane Landfill.  EPA has deemed it necessary to conduct some additional 
sampling at Lemon Lane Landfill.  
 
List asked if the sampling plan would be open to public comment. 
 
Hopkins said that it would not be open to formal public comment but he 
would make it available to the public. 
   
List stated that there would be several people interested in opening the 
landfill to further sampling. 
 
Hopkins said that there are several ways that a landfill can be sampled.  
They can peel back a portion of the cap in layers.  He said that they 
could trench it also. Hopkins said that they would keep the public 
informed as they begin this work. 
 
IDEM's Lemon Lane Landfill Sampling 
 
Bremer said that IDEM conducted some target sampling at the Lemon Lane 
Landfill on march 22, 1995.  They sampled springs and a few of the 
monitoring wells.  They sampled for VOC's, semivolatiles, pesticides, 
metals, dioxins and furans in surface water, groundwater and sediments.   
 
Bremer introduced Resa Ramsey, the new IDEM project manager for the 
Bloomington sites.  Bremer is moving to a different department.  
 
IDEM's Study of Alternatives to Incineration 
 
Robert Foster and Michael Johnson of PRC gave a presentation regarding 
their study of alternatives to incineration. PRC is a nationwide 
environmental consulting firm with about 800 employees in 30 offices in 
the U.S. Most of their work is done with CERCLA sites.  PRC has also 
been an EPA contractor for the Office of Research and Development's 
SITEs program.  They have conducted full scale and pilot scale testing 
for various PCB treatment technologies. 
 
PRC's 3 main objectives are:  to evaluate and compare PCB remediation 
technologies to high temperature incineration; evaluate and compare the 
merits of the technologies specified in IC-13-7-16.5-9.; and to 
identify, evaluate , and compare other PCB remediation techniques that 
vary in the degree to which long-term management of treatment residuals 
or untreated waste is required. PRC will not look at a no action 
alternative or containment as a solution.  Of the nine evaluation 
criteria, two are not being addressed by this study, state acceptance, 
or community acceptance.  PRC will accept public comment at a later date 
when the draft document is completed.  Two assumptions made are that the 
waste volumes and cleanup levels identified in the consent decree were 
used as a basis as opposed to a separate health risk assessment. PRC is 
also assuming that the sites that would be used for the treatment system 
would be the same as those proposed by Westinghouse for destruction in 
the incinerator. 
 
Henshel asked if they are considering that there may be other sites that 
could be considered? 
 
List said that they are not considering that there may be other sites.      
 
Backhus asked why they do not compare or contrast the other technologies 
with incineration. 
 
Johnson said that the scope of the work is to look at alternatives. 
 
Bremer said that when the study is completed that the state can then 
compare incineration to the alternatives. 
 
Johnson reviewed each of PRC's handouts.  These handouts are available 
at the Bloomington Public Information Center.  
Backhus asked if there were plans to bring PRC back to the CIC once 
their study is completed. 
 
Foster said yes. 
 
Dye Trace Data 
 
Mike Baker said that COPA was awarded a Technical Assistance Grant (TAG) 
so that they could bring technical experts into Bloomington to review 
technical documents done by the government parties or Westinghouse. COPA 
has brought in a few people to speak to various issues related to some 
of the Lemon Lane Landfill geological data presented last year by the 
governmental parties and Westinghouse.  Before the presentation Baker 
wanted to let the CIC know about another project that COPA is doing.  
COPA is developing a community access bulletin board so that a non-
technical audience can learn about the remedial process and the options 
available at each site.  COPA said that there are limitations to 
accessing information at the Public Library.  He said that the bulletin 
board will make it easier for the general public to access critical 
documents related to the Bloomington sites.  They will be getting 
information form the government parties and Westinghouse for use in the 
bulletin board.  COPA will put a computer into the public library.  To 
access the database, call 333-8822.   
 
Pauline Ewald from Environmental Compliance Organization (ECO) began the 
presentation. Her major points were that dioxins and furans are known 
co-contaminants of PCBs and that recent research suggest that dioxins 
and furans are more soluble in water than PCBs. Ewald said that field 
testing results indicate that dioxins are more likely to move into 
groundwater than PCBs, therefore making PCB monitoring alone 
insufficient to indicate water quality. She also stated that dioxins are 
toxic in trace quantities and the maximum contaminant level is below 
normal detection methods.  She believes that specialized dioxin testing 
of water supplies is imperative.   
 
Ewald's summary of concerns was that a comprehensive site 
characterization is required at each of the Bloomington sites and that 
the site characterization must include sampling dioxins and furans using 
appropriate lab detection limits. She asserted that the site 
characterization performed to date is inadequate for the purpose of 
making remedial decisions and that drinking water monitoring must 
include appropriate tests for dioxins and furans.     
 
Joe Hailer spoke next on the specific hydrologic investigations that 
Westinghouse and their contractors had performed at the Lemon Lane 
Landfill site. He outlined specifics from the 11/87 Hydroscience, 5/89 
WEGS, and the 5/90 McCann Lemon Lane Hydrologic Studies.  After his 
presentation of each study Hailer concluded that only 18% of the dye was 
recovered, and some of the limitations of the studies showed poor 
connections, severe dilution, strong adsorption, epikarstic storage, 
poor analysis, and other exits.  Hailer's recommendations are to perform 
careful studies of site water quantity and quality, including 
identification of water flow paths, rates, and variability and 
determination of contaminant release paths and variability.  Hailer 
suggested that Westinghouse should demonstrate ability to prevent 
contaminant escape.   
 
Melissa Valentin spoke next about the hydrogeology and the parties 
current focus.  She suggested that closure in place is the only option 
presently being considered by the parties.   Several of the government 
parties objected to this and stated that currently there is no cleanup 
proposal under consideration and that they would consider leaving waste 
in place as part of the solution for the Lemon Lane Landfill but that 
other possible solutions would be considered too.  Valentin continued to 
discuss the unsuitability of closure in place and gave some reasons it 
is not a viable solution in Bloomington.  1) Isolation of soil/fill is 
not feasible; sinkhole provides direct access to cavernous limestone. 2) 
Long term monitoring, capture and treatment of discharges is ineffective 
and expensive if contaminant source not removed. 3) Dye trace and water 
chemistry studies demonstrate probable leachate migration in all 
directions around the landfill, as far out at they have looked.  
Valentin's alternatives were to excavate, separate, shred and treat the 
Lemon Lane Landfill materials or to excavate and relocate the 
contamination.  Valentin suggested that removal and treatment/disposal 
would be an expensive and difficult alternative but that the likelihood 
of success would be greater than for closure in place.  She also 
asserted that it would provide for a permanent solution. 
 
Dick Powell suggested that the biggest fault of the dye trace studies is 
that Westinghouse did not take enough samples to characterize background 
conditions. 
 
Powell said that he knew that the majority of the water from Lemon Lane 
went to Illinois Central and Quarry springs before the dye trace studies 
were done.  He said that was obvious before the study. Powell said that 
the closest spring to Lemon Lane is Illinois Central spring. He said 
this is one of the largest springs in the area. 
 
Hopkins asked if Hailer had considered the elevation difference between 
the wells injected with tracer and the springs showing possible positive 
tracer results. 
 
Hailer said that he did not.     
 
Valentin asked if there is a regional discharge point at the bedrock 
formations or oriented toward the southwest.  Is the regional flow 
toward the southwest? 
 
Powell said that the most significant aquifer at Lemon Lane is the 
cavernous zone.  Powell said that he has detected lower water bearing 
zones but they are not what he would consider an aquifer because you 
can't get enough water out of it to supply a water trough for chickens.  
PCBs have been found at some of these springs and in the lower aquifer.  
He does not know how, but thinks they could have gotten into the lower 
aquifer through the drill holes.   This is a problem that needs to be 
addressed. 
 
Baker said that COPA's point is that they received a great deal of 
information at the geology presentations.  This information was taken 
from the data Hailer just presented and all of the parties had given 
their seal of approval to this data and the assumption was that the 
material would be left in place and monitored.  Baker said that all COPA 
is saying is that there are some data gaps and more site 
characterization is needed. 
 
Powell said that there is utility in dye trace studies and one firm 
confirmation he got was that during high flow, water is going to 
Packinghouse/Slaughterhouse springs. 
 
Valentin asked if there were any sampling at quarries. 
 
Powell said that they sampled points of high flow emergence and they did 
not mess with seepage from a quarry a mile away.  They picked up the 
quarries through the springs that were sampled.  Powell said that McCann 
found many springs that had not been previously identified, however, 
that is not to say that he found every spring out there. 
 
List said that Baker's point is that as long as you keep finding stuff 
you cannot say what the extent of contamination is.  He said that until 
you get to a place where you do not find anything more can you say that. 
 
Powell said that he knows for sure there is contamination at Detmer 
Springs but he refuses to believe it is from Lemon Lane.  Powell said 
that one needs to look at the elevation at Detmer with relation to Lemon 
Lane before making a correlation between the two. 
 
Hopkins said that you need to consider that there may be an indication 
of tracer at breakthrough levels but the PCBs may not have come through 
Lemon Lane. 
 
Porter asked why they did three studies with a well that did not work.  
How can the public feel confident at the technical review going on by 
the consent decree parties.  Porter said that one/third of your injected 
sample does not get into the system. Porter asked who was conducting the 
technical reviews and what would lead you to think that they are 
competent.  
 
Powell clarified that Westinghouse did three studies. 
 
Hopkins said that Porter would have to pose that question to 
Westinghouse. 
 
Porter asserted that Hopkins sat at the same meeting and allowed 
Westinghouse's Krothe to say that they had recovered 98% of the bromide 
at Quarry Springs. 
     
Hopkins said that he realizes that when the parties give a joint 
presentation that all of the parties should think the same and should 
use the same language but Hopkins said that is not the case.  Hopkins 
said that there were several angry exchanges between the parties 
regarding how to say specific things but you cannot control what a 
person says in a meeting.  EPA has told people at CIC meetings that EPA 
does not put much value on the particular tracer recovery estimates. 
 
Porter said that EPA turns around and uses those same numbers to assert 
that Quarry Springs is the main exit point. 
 
Hopkins said that we do not understand why you need to know that if you 
have your other bases covered.  Where else can it go? 
 
Several people responded that you do not know that. 
 
Hopkins said that he did not know if we would ever be able to get 
conclusive proof about that, but he is willing to listen to other points 
of view.  He said that there is an exhaustive effort underway. 
 
Baker said that if you go to meetings and the same viewpoint is hammered 
in over and over and no one from the city, county, state, or EPA 
contradicts the view then what are the citizens to believe.  He also 
said that if there is a video put out entitled New Directions and it 
comes out about the same time as the New Directions newsletter then why 
wouldn't the citizens think all parties are in agreement. 
 
Hopkins said that he agrees with the viewpoint regarding the New 
Directions video. 
 
Backhus said that the reality comes out in the question/answer period.  
She said that many people questioned some of the assertions made and 
that it comes out in that period. 
 
Hailer said that the question/answer period was edited out of the video. 
 
Novak said that there is an unedited version available at each of the 
repositories and the Public Information Center. The edited version was 
done for time constraints for the television station.   
 
Baker said that the general public thinks that closure in place is the 
remedy that is going to be used. 
 
Valentin said that she thinks that closure in place is the direction 
that the sites are headed and she does go to all of the meetings. 
 
Backhus said that she does not think that is the direction it is headed 
and she comes to all of the meetings.  She said that viewpoint has never 
been said at these meetings. 
 
Ewald said that if only one viewpoint is going to be discussed then that 
is the only party that should be on stage giving their viewpoint. She 
said that makes it clear. 
 
Henshel asked if EPA could test the water supply in the ppq for dioxins 
and furans. 
 
Backhus said that you need to test the drinking water not the springs.  
 
Ewald said that one of the first things that should be done is finding 
the people on wells and put them on an alternate water source. 
 
Hopkins said that one of the things the studies they are proposing would 
do is identify the wells near the site and if Hopkins has to prioritize 
then those people will get the dioxin sampling first. 
 
Ewald said that these studies should not be limited to Lemon Lane but 
should extend to all of the sites.  Ewald said that no one should be 
using groundwater that is near any of the sites. 
 
Switzer said that Dale Conard's property has livestock that is drinking 
water out of Conard's branch and this should also be considered.   
 
Ewald said that 90% of human exposure to dioxin comes from the food 
chain.      
 
Backhus said that she would like to defer back to something Hopkins said 
a few meetings ago that there is a limit to sampling.  She said that if 
it costs more to take 300 samples at Lemon Lane than it takes to 
remediate all of the sites in Bloomington than it does not make sense to 
take a whole host of samples. 
 
Hopkins said that it is a real consideration when looking at 
characterizing the site. 
 
Valentin suggested relocation of the landfill. 
 
Bremer said that the perception that IDEM was involved in both the New 
Directions video and the New Directions newsletter is inaccurate. She 
said that IDEM participated in a cooperative effort with the other 
parties regarding the newsletter but had nothing to do with the 
videotape.  IDEM has never advocated closure in place and in fact is 
mandated by law to look for alternatives to incineration. 
 
Baker said that COPA agrees that the state, EPA, city and county have 
not advocated closure in place but with the constraints of the consent 
decree, Westinghouse is the only party that can propose an alternative, 
and they seem to be advocating closure in place. 
 
Hopkins said that it is too early in the process to identify closure in 
place as an acceptable solution. 
 
Under New Business for the next meeting, Porter would like List to ask 
the city what their degree of involvement will be in the discussions of 
Neal's Landfill as related to the two-mile fringe. 
 
 
Adjournment 
 
The meeting was adjourned by Michael List at 10:40 pm.  The next meeting 
will be held Thursday, April 27th, 1995 at 7:00 p.m. at the PCB Public 
Information Center, Suite 322 Fountain Square Mall.  Free Parking is 
available in the 4th street parking garage and there is off-street 
parking available in front of Fountain Square Mall. 
 
Adapted minutes recorded by Sona Chambers, Bloomington PCB  Public 
Information Center, staffed by Earth Tech. 
 
 
 
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