CITIZENS INFORMATION COMMITTEE
              MINUTES OF JULY 25, 1995 MEETING

Attendees

Deb Backhus, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs
Mike Baker, Coalition Opposed to PCB Ash
Marti Crouch, Near Westside Neighborhood Association
John Foster, Bloomington Environmental Commission
George Hegeman, Monroe County Board of Health
Sally Hegeman, League of Women Voters
Diane Henshel, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs
Dawn Hewitt, The Audubon Society
Dan Hopkins, U.S. EPA Remedial Project Manager
Iris Kiesling, Bloomington City Council
John Langley, Bloomington PCB Coordinator
Michael List, Private Citizen, CIC Chair
Dave Novak, U.S. EPA Community Involvement Coordinator
Brian Pence, People Against the Incinerator
Resa Ramsey, Indiana Department of Environmental Management

Observers

Evelyn Brophy, City Utilities
Jim Cartmell, PCB Site Search Committee
Patricia Cole, City Council
Dan Cortes, COPA
Jim Patrick, Westinghouse
Dave Porter, Citizen
Mitch Rice, Citizen

Approval of Minutes

The minutes were approved with no amendment


Remedial Activities

Dan Hopkins  explained the  installation  of  the  fence  at
Illinois Central  Springs. He  described the  positioning of
the  fence   according  to   concentrations  of   PCBs,  the
characteristics of  the fence  as well as all the activities
related to it. He also explained the problems encountered.

Diane Henshel  asked Dan  Hopkins if  any congener  analysis
were done.

Dan  Hopkins   answered  no,   because  the   literature  is
referencing Aroclor analysis and not congener specific.

Diane  Henshel  added  that  studies  have  been  presenting
congener analysis for years.

Dan Hopkins  said that  he would  welcome  any  more  recent
research done on that.

Dan  Hopkins  said  that  all  the    contaminated  material
contained the  liner system  at ABB  had  been  removed  and
transported, the  gravel lining  underneath the  first liner
has been  removed and the places where there were tares will
be sampled.  To that  date 24695  tons or about 268 railcars
had been removed.

Dave Porter asked what the average concentration was.

Dan Hopkins  answered that  they  didn't  know  the  precise
number but  each truckload  was sampled.  He said  that  the
average could be between 100-400 ppm, but that the range was
wider.

Diane Henshel  asked why the spills were not handled outside
the consent degree.

Hopkins answered  that they  were  not  handled  as  consent
degree sites,  and that it had not been cleaned because they
did not  think  that  by  doing  so  it  would  prevent  the
migration of  the PCBs and that removing the sediments could
be worst.

George Hegeman  asked that given the fact that the PCBs were
migrating and  if they  are a  threat to human health, it is
important that whatever is done in Lemon Lane should be done
as soon as possible.

Dan Hopkins said he agreed with that.

Melissa Valentin  asked if  there were   any  guidelines for
evaluating where  the point  is when  an  action  should  be
taken.

Dan Hopkins answered that a risk based analysis is done.

Melissa Valentin asked what the risk was.

Hopkins answered  that the  risk was  in the order of ten to
the minus  fourth or  fifth and that they not only looked at
the concentration but at the exposure scenario, and that the
area  was   not  somebody's  backyard  and  the  access  was
difficult.

Melissa Valentin  asked if  Hopkins said that during the May
Storm  Sampling   Event  for   Illinois  Central   and   the
Packinghouse/Slaughterhouse Springs.   He said that they did
not find  any PCBs  at Slaughterhouse  but  the  results  at
Illinois Central  were a  completely different  story,  they
just blew it out all over the place.

Valentin asked  if this  was a  one time event or if another
large storm  event could  cause contamination to be released
through the storm system again.

Hopkins said  that this  is not  a one  time event.  Hopkins
said that  they have always had PCBs come out of that spring
system and  the issue  has not  been whether or not it comes
through but  it has  always been  a matter of how much comes
through.   Hopkins said  that he  has not drawn a conclusion
about what  action should  be taken.   Hopkins  said that if
they build  a wall to divert the water from the swallow hole
that they  could create another swallow hole in the process.
He said that it is not a straightforward problem.

Rice asked  if EPA  is aware  of the stream across from Fell
Iron and  Metal site,  on the  east side  of Rogers  and the
North side of the railroad tracks.

Hopkins said  EPA has  sampled there  but  the  levels  were
either non detect or very low.

Is it  possible that  you could  use the  fact  that  it  is
forming  a   funnel,  to   filter  it  artificially  at  the
swallowable.

Hopkins said  that he  feels that  it is possible to do that
but he will have to talk to his geologist about that.

Porter said  that EPA  says that they are putting out a fire
by putting  up a fence. Porter said that EPA says that there
are pounds  of PCBs coming through and every time there is a
storm event  the PCBs  are going  to flush  through.  Porter
said that a fence is not going to stop the PCBs.

Hopkins said  that the lion's share is not getting to Quarry
Springs because it is being stopped up in the bermed area by
the railroad tracks.

Valentin said  that she  thought that  at the same time they
put up  the fence  at Illinois  Central that they could also
put in a filter.

Hopkins said that he would look into that.

Foster asked  what is  it going to take to call this a point
source and to get a spring treatment system installed.

Hopkins  said  that  a  spring  treatment  facility  is  not
necessary. Hopkins  said that  during a  storm event  in May
that PCBs came through with a high volume of water.  He said
that it  would be  difficult  to  assess  what  size  spring
treatment facility  would be  needed to handle the volume of
water.  He said it's like at Neal's Landfill.

Foster wants  to know  if the  water at  Illinois Central is
ever going  to be collected and treated or if it is going to
be allowed to go wherever.

Hopkins said  that he  has consulted  with his  geologist on
this issue  and that  it  would  be  difficult  to  build  a
treatment facility  large enough  to handle  the  volume  of
water.   He said  that it would be difficult to find a place
to put it also.

Hopkins said  that he  does not  think that  something  else
should be done that could exacerbate the problem.

Valentin said  she is  troubled by the idea that the problem
is so  large that  EPA is  just going to leave it alone. She
said does  this mean  that if  the problem were smaller that
EPA would do something.

Hopkins said  that if  you did not have to deal with a storm
then you  could have  a spring  treatment facility to handle
the water but there are storms.

Cartmell asked  why you  couldn't have  a lagoon  to collect
water during storm events.

Hopkins said that would not be an attractive proposition for
this area.

Porter said  that leaving  a  continuous  discharge  is  not
attractive either.

List said  that he  thinks that EPA needs to do something to
keep the  PCBs from  leaving the  swallowhole but that it is
all the  more reason why something needs to be done at Lemon
Lane.

Hopkins said that he agrees with List.

Foster asked if an NPDES permit was required?

Hopkins said  that requiring  a permit  would not  solve the
problem.

Valentin said  that requiring  a permit  would  ensure  that
certain standards were attained.

Ramsey asked who would be required to obtain the permit.

Valentin said  that determining  who is  required to  obtain
their permit should not be the problem.

Hopkins said that not having a plant is a lot different than
having a  discharge from the mouth of a spring. Hopkins said
that maybe an interim solution is necessary.

List asked  if there  were a  time frame associated with the
cleanup  remedy   if  that  would  put  enough  pressure  on
Westinghouse to  arrive at  a solution  and if  they did not
then this  point source  would have  to be dealt with.  List
said this would give a sense of urgency.

Hopkins said that he thinks that a great deal of urgency has
been placed  on this  site and  the findings.   Hopkins said
that the  PCB contamination  could have  worked its way into
the fractured  bedrock so that no matter how much digging is
done, the PCBs may not come out for a thousand years.

Foster said  that he  has documentation  showing EPA sampled
that area  in 1982 and found it coming through then and here
it is  1995 and  EPA is  still saying  that it is coming out
today.

Hegeman said  that this  is pointing out that this is one of
the most  pressing cases  where there are routes of exposure
and residences near the site.  Hegeman said that this really
puts the screws to the process.

Hopkins  said   that  EPA  is  diligent  about  getting  the
conceptual plan started at Lemon Lane.

Lemon Lane Conceptual Sampling Plan

Hopkins presented a draft of the  results of the geophysical
survey that was done about the 20th of June at Lemon Lane.

Cartmell said  that the  PCBs would not necessarily be found
in the  same place  as the  capacitors,  because  scavengers
could have  placed the  insides of  the capacitors  in other
places.

Hopkins said  he agreed  with that, and that the geophysical
survey was not perfect and that the idea was to find the hot
spots.

Cartmell said that with geophysics they would not be able to
locate all hot spots because of the scavenging.

Hopkins added  that is  one of  the reasons  why  they  were
planning the boring.

Melissa Valentin  asked what  would happen  if  they  put  a
boring where  there is a lot of metals and they don't find a
hot spot.

Hopkins answered  that they  knew where  some hot spots were
and that  the geophysics  helped confirm  that. He also said
that the  hot spots  showed in  exhibit seven of the consent
decree will  be investigated.  And that  aerial  photographs
together with  the geophysical  survey data was the best way
to locate  hot spots.  He added  that they would put borings
were the  instability of the site was greater, like the sink
holes.

Foster asked how deep the borings would go.

Hopkins said  that the borings would go down to the soil but
not further than that.

Foster asked  if the  boreholes were going to be filled with
anything.

Hopkins answered  that they  might put the trash back in the
hole.

Diane Henshel  asked if  they were  going to place the trash
back in  the boreholes  before they  new what levels of PCBs
they contained.

Hopkins  answered   that  they  would  use  field  measuring
equipment.

Henshel asked  if it  was a  good idea to put back materials
with high PCBs concentrations.

Hopkins answered that it depended on what it was.

Valentin said  that the  immunoassay test  had not been used
before for  landfill materials  and that laboratory analysis
should be used.

Diane Henshel  and Melissa  Valentin were  concerned by  the
fact that the sampling would not include dioxin.

Hopkins said  that it  could not be done because of economic
limitations.

Foster asked  what the  result of  the sampling  was if they
already knew what was there.

Hopkins answered  that the  objective was the removal of the
hot spots.

EPA Budget

Hopkins  said  that  there  had  been  a  hundred    million
rescinsion from  Superfund  on  a  National  level  and  8.5
million dollars  from  Region  5.  Hopkins  said  that  this
affected the  fourth  quarter  funding  and  resulted  in  a
significant decrease  in the  community relations budget. He
also stated  that there  is no  funding for the ground water
sampling planned  for all the sites. He added that there was
no funding  for the  Lemon  Lane  Landfill  exploration.  He
continued  that  what  was  emphasized  was  emergency  type
threats, construction  completion, and what was deemphasized
was  responsible  party  oversight,  the  beginning  of  new
efforts.   He said  that everything  that is  being done  in
Bloomington falls into the latter category.

Hopkins also  said that although that decision affected EPA,
they will emphasize these types of efforts.

Ramsey said that she is asking her department head about the
possibility of  IDEM picking  up some  of  this  effort  but
believes that they will say no.

Hopkins said  that the nineteenth of July he made a visit to
Winston Thomas  and Lemon  Lane with  an ecologist from EPAs
Edison NY  office, and  ecologist from  their office and Dan
Spargo to  familiarize the  ecologists  with  the  sites  to
develop sampling  plans. He  said that  it seemed  that  the
Emergency Response Team (ERT) in Edison, NJ had money.

Foster asked  what  the additional testing at Winston Thomas
was going to tell them.

Hopkins answered  that it would provide a lot of information
from the  ecological point  of view.  He also  said that the
information was  important because it would determine if the
situation could  be handled  outside the consent decree as a
time critical scenario.

List asked  how far  they were  from taking  any  action  at
Winston Thomas.

Hopkins said  that something  should  be  done  as  soon  as
possible and  that he  has been  trying  to  get  money  and
communicating with the neighbors.

Hegeman said  that it was the easiest site to handle and the
ideal target to emergency action.

Hopkins said  he had  problems with the threshold of getting
into an  emergency action, that they were working as a group
and that he thought that it would happen.

Henshel asked  if emergency  responses were  defined only on
humans effects or on also on wildlife effects.

Hopkins answered that both, but human were a stronger case.

Foster asked if there had been any sampling done outside the
fence of the treatment plant.

Hopkins said  that they did some in ninety one and that John
Langley had recently done some more.
List asked what was been done to fill the gap of knowledge.

Hopkins said that the biggest thing was being able to get to
it.

List asked  if there  had been anything done about notifying
the school kids about Illinois Central

Novak answered that what they had was in the planning stages
and that  they were  thinking of  preparing a fact sheet for
kids K-6  that Sona Chambers had a draft of it. He said that
they would  notify the  schools and provide copies. He added
that when  Fell is  finally approved  the  entire  situation
would be addressed.

Novak said  that they  were discussing  getting  a  mime  to
communicate with the kids.

Valentin asked  if there  were going  to  be  responsiveness
summary regarding ABB and Fell comments.

Hopkins said that ABB's had already been distributed.

Novak said  that everybody  who submitted  a comment  got  a
copy.

Valentin asked about the QAPP.

Hopkins answered  that he  had brought a copy of it. He also
said that Westinghouse and EPA had different QAPPs.

Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned by Michael List at 9:32 pm.  The
next meeting will be held Tuesday, September 19th, 1995 at
7:00 p.m. at the PCB Public Information Center, Suite 322
Fountain Square Mall.  Free Parking is available in the 4th
street parking garage and off-street parking is available in
front of Fountain Square Mall.

Adapted minutes recorded by Sona Chambers, Bloomington PCB
Public Information Center, staffed by Earth Tech.