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               CITIZENS INFORMATION COMMITTEE
          MINUTES OF SEPTEMBER 19TH, 1995 MEETING

Attendees

Deb Backhus, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs
Mike Baker, Coalition Opposed to PCB Ash
George Hegeman, Monroe County Board of Health
Sally Hegeman, League of Women Voters
Diane Henshel, IU School of Public and Environmental Affairs
Dan Hopkins, U.S. EPA Remedial Project Manager
Iris Kiesling, Bloomington City Council
John Langley, Bloomington PCB Coordinator
Dave Novak, U.S. EPA Community Involvement Coordinator
Resa Ramsey, Indiana Department of Environmental Management

Observers

Evelyn Brophy, City Utilities
Patricia Cole, City Council
David Murphee, Indiana University
Dave Porter, Citizen
Louis Schwitzer, COPA
Melissa Valentin, COPA

Approval of Minutes

George Hegeman presided over the meeting in Michael List's
absence.  The meeting began at 7:10 pm and the minutes were
approved without amendment. Mike Baker and Melissa Valentin
both noted that the minutes are not verbatim and do not
reflect the verbatim transcript of the videotape. Baker said
that if someone wants an accurate transcript of the meeting,
then they should listen to the tape.

Hopkins said that he is aware that the minutes are not
verbatim. He said that the meeting notes handed out to the
CIC members are supposed to be a summary.

Novak said that if the members want to change that, then it
should be up to the members to change that.  Novak said that
he is not going to dictate that be done.

Remedial Activities

Dan Hopkins said that the removal of PCB soil at ABB is
completed. Hopkins said that 24,695 tons of contaminated
soil was removed and 1268 railcars of contaminated material
was transported to Utah. Hopkins said that the removal
activities have begun at the Fell Iron and Metal Site. EPA
had met with the community in a public availability session
at the Baneker Community Center.  Hopkins said that it was
not well attended. The only people EPA met with were

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employees of the Hoosier Hills Food Bank and John Fernandez,
Democratic Mayoral Candidate.

Hopkins said that he brought a copy of the final work plan
for Fell. EPA said that he approved the work plan providing
Westinghouse made four modifications suggested by EPA.

One modification is that the cleanup level will be 10 ppm at
the Fell Site.  He said that the initial order called for a
cleanup level of 25 ppm but under the PCB Spill Policy, a
more appropriate cleanup level would be 10 ppm. The site
does not have restricted access and it is located in a
residential neighborhood. There were two modifications
related to air monitoring. One of the modifications are
related to the personnel monitoring, EPA is leaving that to
the discretion of the Westinghouse contractor's health and
safety officer. The second modification related to ambient
air monitoring. Hi volume air samplers are to be used to
verify compliance with an action level which is 1 ug m3 -1.
Hopkins said that Westinghouse's contractor will have 5 air
monitors, one at Fairview Elementary School, and one at each
corner of the site's perimeter.  Hopkins said that EPA is
interested in detecting the contaminant levels in the air so
that they know what is crossing the fence line.  Hopkins
said that they discussed three different types of wind
conditions; a primary wind direction, calm days, and a
secondary wind condition.  Hopkins said that depending on
which type of wind condition is present would depend on how
many samples are taken between two or three.  Hopkins said
that samples will always be taken from the Fairview
Elementary School Monitor.

Schwitzer asked why a monitor was not located norteast of
the pile because the primary wind direction is from the
southwest.

Hopkins said that the perimeter of the site is pretty much
covered with air monitors. Hopkins said that if you look at
a wind rose for this area that although the wind is pretty
much out of the southwest, it is not by a high percentage.
He said that he expects wind direction to be the wind
pattern and is much more of a function of what kind of
weather patterns are moving through at that particular time.
Hopkins said that they focused more on the nearest receptor.

Baker asked if the air monitors are easily identifiable.

Hopkins responded that the monitors are easily identifiable.

It was mentioned that a previous fact sheet was done showing
the air monitors and how they work.

Someone asked if they were tamper resistant.


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Hopkins said that they have locks on them.  He also
mentioned in 1989 that someone tampered with the air monitor
on top of Fairview Elementary School. He said that
Westinghouse is working in cooperation with the school and
they have people monitoring the monitors. Hopkins said that
the intent of the monitors is to detect concentration levels
in the air while the pile is uncovered.  He said that they
run continuously.

Porter asked where the weather station is located on the
site.

Hopkins said he was visiting the site tomorrow and will find
the exact location.

Hegeman asked what "cleaning to 10 ppm" meant?

Hopkins said that under the PCB Spill Policy that a site
located in a residential area or at a commercial facility
needs to be cleaned to 10 ppm. Hopkins said that the policy
also talks about a minimum depth of 10 inches.  He said that
as long as the top material is taken off, that is what he is
looking for. He said that if after taking the 10 inches off,
there is significant contamination, then he would have to
require further excavation.  Hopkins said that there would
have to be serious breaches in the liner for there to be
substantial contamination underneath it.

Valentin said that Westinghouse's objection to 10 ppm at
Fell may have more to do with setting a precedent at the
other sites.  She said that if they remove to 10 ppm then
they also have to put in 10 inches of clean fill and they
may feel that if they do that at Fell then they may have to
do it at the other sites.

Hopkins said that they may be partly the case.

Valentin asked if Westinghouse has agreed to this at Fell.

Hopkins said that they agreed to the sampling but not to the
10 ppm.

Schwitzer asked why Westinghouse  had to agree.  He thought
that EPA could just order it.

Hopkins said that is the way EPA thinks too.  Hopkins said
that Westinghouse is doing the cleanup and that is a
consideration.

Hopkins said that the previous order was 25 ppm and that is
why Westinghouse has an objection with the 10 ppm.

Valentin asked if there was an administrative record.


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Hopkins said that he brought the records to make it complete
from the time the last one was prepared.

Valentin asked for a copy on diskette.

Tzallas said that he would get that to the PIC by next week.

Public Presentation at Fairview Elementary School

Novak said that EPA will bring in an outside performer, Jay
Miller, a mime, and storyteller to the Fairview School to
teach the children  about safety issues as related to the
Illinois Central and Fell sites. Novak said that if the
children seem to get something out of Jay's presentation
that EPA may take this to other school's in the Spring.
Novak said that EPA is finalizing an activity booklet that
basically tells the story of where the material came from,
what happened, what EPA has done, etc. The activity booklet
can be colored, there is a word find, a glossary, and
phonetic pronunciations. There are also signs depicted in
the booklet that represent signs at the actual sites.  These
signs were used at another site in Michigan City and were
found to be appropriate in Bloomington as well.

Baker asked why there is not something to show that there is
"Danger" at the site.  He said that these signs do not
really address why someone should keep out.

Valentin said that she has seen a picture with a bolt of
lightening on it.  She said that when her kids see this they
know to stay away or a bolt of lightening may strike them.
She thinks there should be something that tells kids to stay
away without terrifying them.

There was a great deal of discussion about what the signs
should say.

Baker said that the sign is fine but they should have
another sign next to it that says "Danger, PCBs"  He said
that there is not a person in Bloomington that does not know
that PCBs means danger and to stay away.

Hegeman suggested Mr.Yuk.

EPA said that they had already incorporated Mr. Yuk into the
activity booklet.

Valentin said that she thought the presentation at Fairview
Elementary School was a good idea and she would like EPA to
know that.

Someone asked how much the presentation cost.


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Novak said that Miller's presentation was about $800 and
that the activity booklet was about 700 so the total was
about $l500-$2500.

Porter asked if this is spin control.

Hopkins said no, that the idea is to reach a segment of the
population that they have not previously reached.

Porter said that EPA is soft-pedaling the hazards.

Hopkins said that they are trying to communicate a hazard
without scaring the children.  He said that he believes
there have been some good ideas put forward and that EPA
will consider them.

Resa Ramsey said that IDEM extended the public comment
period for the alternatives review to September 28th. The
state had copies of the document in all of the information
repositories in Bloomington. The COPA BBS has most of it
online. BCAT has the public meeting on videotape.

Schwitzer said that people can view the text files or they
can download them or the graphics files to their home
computers.

To date, Ramsey said that she has received three comments.

Baker asked why the public comment period was only extended
15 days when several people asked for a 30-45 day extension.

Ramsey said that the comment period was extended to make the
entire public comment period 45 days.

Others also said that they thought the comment period
extension was going to be longer.  It was suggested that
another extension be granted.

Ramsey said she would look into it.

Porter asked what the utility of the study was.

Ramsey said to look at the alternatives that were required
by the state mandate.

Porter asked how it is useful?

Ransey said that she hopes that the other parties will look
at this study in their discussion of alternatives.

Baker said that in COPA's comments that they are suggesting
that the parties use this study as a base and add to it as
additional data becomes available. Baker said that they were
looking at it as a good start but not as the final answers.

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Hegeman pointed  out that the study is not a decision
document.

Valentin said that it points out  that there are options
available.

Baker said that it also points out that the no-action
alternative is not an option and that there is a need for
some type of remediation.

Ramsey said that it also stresses that more data is needed
on a particular waste matrix before determining if any of
them would work.

Baker said that COPA has gone through all of the documents
related to Lemon Lane Landfill and put them in a spreadsheet
format. He said that the TAG grant monies allowed them to
sort through everything so that the general public did not
have to.

Hopkins said that in late August, there was spring, stream
and domestic well sampling done. Hopkins said that he found
someone who had money to analyze samples and Hopkins had
some sites that needed sampling so they teamed up and
sampled some springs, streams and domestic wells. Hopkins
said that it was a pretty extensive effort.  At Illinois
Central and Slaughterhouse Springs, there were four other
directly connected springs, Quarry, Illinois Central Gulf 1,
Ph-Culvert, Ph-Road. EPA also sampled the sediment and water
of nine springs that had sporadic dye detections.  At
Illinois Central and Slaughterhouse Springs, EPA sampled for
dioxins, furans, VOC's, semi-volatiles, pesticides, and
metals.  Westinghouse sampled for PCBs.  Hopkins said that
those results should be in very soon.

Henshel asked what the detection limit was.

Hopkins said that it was ppt for dioxins in water, ppb for
other compounds in water, and ppm for compounds in soil.

Henshel asked who sampled?

Hopkins said that Westinghouse had someone sample for PCBs
and EPA had someone sample for the other compounds.

Valentin asked when the samples would be back?

Hopkins said that EPA went through a contract lab program
(CLP) and will have them no sooner than 30 days.

Hopkins said that wells within a 5000 foot radius of Lemon
Lane Landfill were sampled if they had an operable well.  If
they did not have an operable pump then they may not have

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been sampled. The reason is because they would have had to
be bailed out by hand.

Valentin asked how many were sampled?

Hopkins said that there were 31 sampled.

Schwitzer asked if this was just water that was used for
human consumption or if livestock was included in that also.

Ramsey said that was one of the questions used in the well
survey and she did not find anyone using their well for
anything other than human consumption.

Hopkins said that he would like to thank Evelyn Brophy with
the City for all of the work she did on the well surveys and
sampling and also Resa Ramsey, Sona Chambers, John Langley,
Dennis Williamson, and Mike McCann. Hopkins said that this
was a large effort and much leg work went into this effort.

Baker said that at the last CIC meeting, it looked bleak and
as though this effort would not happen.  He said that COPA
is appreciative. He said that he also took Hopkins advice
and sat down to a beer and an attorney and discussed CERCLA
Sections 104 and 106. He said that COPA believes that the
Consent Decree does preserve the United States right for
cost recovery authority under those two sections.  He said
that there is nothing in the Consent Decree that COPA can
find that would indicate otherwise. His question is, given
this complete cost recovery authority, why would EPA budget
cuts affect oversight or sampling programs on Monroe County
and Owen County Superfund sites.

Hopkins said that typically he would budget so much money
for site work, you have the EPA contractor perform the work,
then pay the contractor for the work.  Afterwards, EPA then
seeks cost recovery from the PRP.  EPA did this at Fell Iron
and Metal and will do this at ABB.

Baker said so what you are saying is that even though CERCLA
gives EPA authority to seek cost recovery EPA must first
have the money to perform the work so they so they can pay
their contractor before recovering the costs.

Baker said that COPA does not understand why EPA has to
worry about budget cuts as related to Bloomington sites when
they have a PRP.

Baker said that they had attorney's look at the consent
decree through its various drafts to its completion and they
cannot find anything that prohibits EPA from seeking full
cost recovery from Westinghouse as related to the consent
decree sites.


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Hopkins said that if COPA has something that EPA doesn't
then EPA attorney, Jeff Cahn, would  be interested in
reviewing what they have.
Hopkins said that it was probably not appropriate to take up
everyone else's time discussing this issue but he would like
to discuss this further with Baker.

Getting back to the residential well sampling, Hopkins said
that out of the 31 wells sampled for PCBs that 20 would also
be sampled for other contaminants including dioxins and
furans. Hopkins said that EPA used all of the remaining
budget on this sampling effort that ended on October 1st.

Schwitzer asked, procedurally, who makes the decision that
EPA is going to conduct the sampling and send Westinghouse
the bill.

Hopkins said that it does not work that way.  He said that
EPA can do the sampling and then do cost recovery or EPA can
order Westinghouse to do the work.  Hopkins said that he is
not sure about the second option.  Hopkins said in order to
have someone do the work, EPA would have to have the ability
to pay for the work.  Hopkins said that there is a consent
decree in Bloomington and that the parties must work within
the framework of the consent decree.   Paragraph 114 i
allows for an alternative but it is not delineated well in
terms of who does what when.  Hopkins said that EPA is
jointly working with the other parties and to order one of
the parties to do something especially when it is not
completely delineated who does what, when he thinks is a
problem.

Valentin asked what would  happen if the residential well
sampling results show contaminated wells.

Hopkins said that if an immediate response was warranted, he
is sure that would happen. Hopkins said that Westinghouse
has put people on city water before when there was a
problem.

Hopkins said that at the last meeting that Henshel suggested
putting a filter on the swallowhole.  Hopkins spoke to his
geologists and they said that it would be more effective to
filter it at the culvert. Hopkins said that he is meeting
with his geologists tomorrow and he will pursue this further
with them.

Porter asked if there would be more spring sampling.

Ramsey said that there is a fall spring sampling scheduled.

Porter asked if anything had been done to validate a
connection between swallowhole and Quarry Springs.


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Hopkins said that it is definitive that those two are
connected.

Valentin said that she does not think Porter's is
questioning that the two are connected but that there is a
lot of it going elsewhere that we do not know about.

Hopkins said he would pursue that with his geologists
tomorrow. He said that you need really careful about how you
draw conclusions from it. If you are thinking that what goes
down the swallowhole must be coming out Quarry A & B but
some of it comes out down the creek.

Porter asked where Hopkins is getting the assertion that it
must come out.

Backhus said that the question that Hopkins is asking is is
there a connection or not whereas Porter is asking another
question which is if all the dye got there. She does not
think that Hopkins is drawing that type of conclusion.

Porter said that Mike McCann stood in front of the public
and said that Westinghouse recovered 98% of the Lithium
Bromide.

Hopkins said that after water leaves Illinois Central it
goes down the railroad tracks to a weir.  He said that this
is where the flow measurements were taken. Hopkins said that
McCann took flow measurements upstream of the swallowhole
which is the data that Porter is talking about. Hopkins said
that to Porter's point, that there would have to be another
dye tracer done.  Hopkins said that he would talk to his
geologists about it.  He said that he has a great deal of
respect for the geologists especially when they can tell him
whether or not something is worth doing or not and then back
it up.

Baker said that he has heard of a super hydrogeologist at
EPA that can be consulted from other regions but he has to
be approached by the region that would want his assistance.

Hopkins asked if it was Malcolm Field.

Baker said that he does not know his name but he can find
out from some of the other groups.  He would also like EPA
to ask him to help with this issue.

Hopkins said that if a geologist is an expert in his
geographical area then other geologists will oftentimes
defer to that geologist when working in her/his area.
Hopkins said that he thinks that we have top notch
geologists in this area.


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Baker said that they had geologists that have refuted what
these geologists have said. Baker said that Joe Hailer, a
geologist that used to run the Indiana Geological Survey,
and a person who  has lived and worked in Bloomington made
some suggestions not just harsh criticisms and no one has
looked into those.

Hopkins said that he does not remember Hailer making any
suggestions.

Baker said that Hopkins could ask this EPA guy and if he
said he would just defer to the locals then the community
would accept that.

Hopkins said that if Baker is talking about Malcolm Field,
that he did work on this project in the beginning.  Hopkins
said that he had a great deal of confidence in the local
geologists and there is something to be said about working
in a particular area.

Baker said that EPA could save money by using their own
geologist.

Hegeman asked what the current status of the EPA budget was.

Hopkins said that there is talk of a continuing resolution
and then the budget may get resolved or there could be
another crisis, then another continuing resolution. Hopkins
said that he really does not know what will happen with the
EPA budget at this time.

Valentin formally requested that Hopkins consult with
Malcolm Field.

Hopkins said that he does not think that would be useful.

Valentin asked why not.

Hopkins said that he had good people that he feels confident
with.

Hopkins said that if the issue were how do you do a dye
trace result of which you can have confidence by doing a
mass balance, Hopkins would not consult Malcolm but if it
were an issue where Hopkins were to ask him, in his
experience where he has set up a control or a filter or
something set up and what type of possible remedies were
there, then Hopkins might consult him.

Porter said that the fact that the experts conducted a dye
trace study using a faulty injection well should shake his
confidence in them.

Hopkins said that he knew why they did it.

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Porter said that if you are honest about it then you would
know it is because they did not know what was happening.

Hopkins said that he did not think they knew about it on the
first one.

Porter said and the second and after the fact on the third.

Backhus said until someone starts using that data to base
decisions, she does not feel a need to criticize it.  She
said that no one is saying that absolutely all of the water
is coming out of this spring, and no one is doing that at
the moment, she does not feel the need to criticize it.  She
said that a lot of field work is trial and error because you
cannot see beneath the ground.

Baker asked if COPA can come up with some questions for EPA
to pose to the EPA geologist, would EPA forward it to him.

Hopkins said yes.

Hopkins said following up on what Backhus said, EPA is not
using the dye trace studies to a quantitative analysis. What
they are doing instead is focusing on or directing the
sampling for chemical constituents.  Hopkins said that is
why there are 15 or so springs being sampled.  Hopkins said
that most of the people involved in the work believe that
97% of the problem is at Illinois Central that is why the
focus is on that spring.

Porter said that EPA has been telling the public for years
that there is nothing to worry about at the springs that it
is always non-detect.  He said but the recent sporadic
spring sampling shows 1400 ppm and they got those results by
accident.

Hopkins said for Porter not to mix water and sediment.
Hopkins said that the sediment results in that area have
typically been 17 ppm.  Hopkins said that this time it was
much higher.

Porter asked if this was a one time event.

Hopkins said that he did not know if it was a one time event
or not.

Hopkins said that he brought a copy of the peripheral spring
sampling results and will leave them at the PIC for those
who want to come take a look at them.

New Business


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Baker said that COPA's BBS will be on the Internet within
the week.   Baker said that COPA has gotten a local service
provider to help them make it possible. Baker said that he
will be writing a letter to each of the consent decree
parties asking them to make a once a year donation to help
cover the additional costs associated with Internet.  Baker
said that any party could upload their documents on the
bulletin board.  Baker said that the COPA BBS has received
949 calls to date. Baker said that COPA plans to place ads
in the IDS and Herald-Times publishing the BBS number.

Baker said that in 1984, EPA hired MIT to research a project
to make environmental regulation more efficient and less
meticulous.  Basically, the real problem identified in the
research project was how EPA negotiated.  It said that one
of the main problems with their negotiations is that the
public is always left out.  The reason that they are left
out is that the EPA and the other parties are not free to
talk.  Baker said that he prefaces this document with
another request that EPA reconsider putting a member of the
community on the technical committee when discussing the
Bloomington PCB project.  Baker said that the community and
EPA are still working under the same confines as in 1984 and
this is 1995.  Baker said that he would leave a copy for
EPA.

Baker said, for the record, he would like to know where EPA
came up with the 25 borings at Lemon Lane Landfill.

Hopkins said that they came up with that number in a plan
and then provided the parties with a draft plan for comment.

Valentin said that when several parties discuss an issue
that decisions are made and negotiations occur. She thinks
it would be better to have representatives from all
stakeholders including a citizen and the Fish and Wildlife
Service (FWS).
Hopkins said that he does not disagree with what Baker is
saying and he made a passionate plea to have a citizen on
the technical committee but the other parties did not agree
with him.  Hopkins said that there is an effort underway to
increase the dialogue with the FWS.  He said that he does
not want to raise anyone's expectations but there is an
outreach effort with the FWS. Hopkins wants to see that
dialogue expanded.

Valentin said that is good to hear.

Baker said that there continues to be skepticism from the
public when COPA comes across documents that were written in
1984 from the Department of Justice that say Westinghouse is
going to take 25 borings at Lemon Lane Landfill and the
volume of contamination there is 670,000 cubic yards. The
estimate that all of the parties have used since the signing

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of the consent decree in 1985 has been 650,000 cubic yards
for all of the sites.

Hopkins said that he has never seen the document that Baker
is talking about and it is a coincidence that EPA selected
the same number of borings. He said that he would like to
see the document that Baker is talking about.

Valentin said that the number in the consent decree
(650,000) is what Westinghouse is required to clean up. She
said that the larger number is the pre 1960 level.

Hopkins said that maybe right.

Backhus said she also thinks that we should push to have a
citizen in the technical meetings but she also thinks that
you have trust that your government representative is
representing your viewpoint in these meetings and you can
ensure that by coming to these meetings and letting them
know your viewpoint.

Baker said that there are a great deal of people who do not
feel that they are being represented by their government
representative.

Hopkins said let's look hypothetically at a situation.  He
said suppose you choose a citizen to represent you.  How do
you know that you can trust them. Hopkins said they would
attend the meetings and come back and say the same thing
that the other parties are saying, would you trust them?

Baker said that if the community picked that person, they
would have to trust them.

Henshel said she would still like to try the idea.

Hopkins said he would too.

Baker said for Hopkins to keep asking.

Hopkins said that the parties also has to have some
confidence in the person too.

Adjournment

The meeting was adjourned by George Hegeman at 9:33 pm.  The
next meeting will be held Thursday, December 14th, 1995 at
7:00 p.m. at the PCB Public Information Center, Suite 322
Fountain Square Mall.  Free Parking is available in the 4th
street parking garage and off-street parking is available in
front of Fountain Square Mall.

Adapted minutes recorded by Sona Chambers, Bloomington PCB
Public Information Center, staffed by Earth Tech.

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